Agenda talk:2013-11/Frequently asked questions

User groups: 'why now'

The consultation process could be made clearer. The last paragraph could be rewritten:

"We consulted with AffCom and the WMF Executive Director in making this decision. The ED endorsed it, AffCom did not, but we took the committee's concerns into account."

–SJ talk  09:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

SJ, with all respect, your proposed text would be a slight departure from the truth and would feel disrespectful to me (and perhaps to other members of AffCom). --Bence (talk) 13:12, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Bence. I also received a clarifying email about this today. This subthread was useful for me, since my understanding of the discussions leading up to the decision had been different. In that case, this paragraph could be removed; the end of the FAQ covers the discussion after the decision was made, and there is no need to repeat it. –SJ talk  18:23, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I am fine with removing that sentence. --Bence (talk) 18:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Removed: "We also received a recommendation from the WMF Executive Director to make this decision, and before publishing the decision we consulted with AffCom. AffCom did not endorse this change, but we took the committee's concerns into account." –SJ talk  19:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! -- phoebe | talk 00:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Trust in the existing entity model

One of the original questions was "Has the WMF lost trust in chapters and thematic organizations? Does the WMF think chapters are a bad idea?" I switched this to the positive version of those questions. If this missed an aspect of the original, feel free to add Qs or ask for further clarity. –SJ talk  18:58, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Concept of user group (not related to being legally incorporated)

Although I do agree that focusing on programmatic activities is more important than focusing on bylaws and necessarily requiring legal incorporation, I`m afraid there is a conceptual confusion on the statement made on that point. I would like to ask for clarification on the understanding of the user groups. I've pointed out a couple of times in Brazil that creating a user group does not necessarily mean not incorporating. As the user group page states, "User groups may or may not be legally incorporated entities". Therefore, the difference between a user group and a chapter may be only in the relation with WMF and not on how they are formed on the ground. A user group might well be incorporated if it feels right for the group. Only WMF would not endorse this group as much as it would endorse a chapter through financial support and trademark pre-authorized use. Is that correct?--Oona (talk) 19:51, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I second this question. I know some WMF board members have negative opinions about formal entities, but most volunteer work in the world is organised through associations and other formal entities, because shared rules help democracy and efficiency. In many countries, setting up an association is is a very easy and logical step, while "groups" and other abstract ideas in the air are huge bureaucratical complications.

The whole decision is all focused on money: the duty to spend money and conduct "programs"; the possibility to ask money to the WMF. What if some wikimedians just want to get together in an association? What if they don't want your dirty damned money?

Will they be allowed to set up an association with a meaningful name ("incorporated" association for some meaning of the word, depending on the country) or will you prevent them from doing so? Can they make an association and ask recognition as "user group", so they'd be called "Association wiki friends of the ice acting as [approved] Wikisource Tasmania user group" in the first two years and then "Wikisource Tasmania association" two years later after approval? Or will they need to have two separate things, the actual association and the ghost "user group" because WMF is in love with this organisational structure, possibly being forced to re-incorporate again after two years? And what sense does all this make? --Nemo 20:43, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I third this question. I don’t see why user groups must be unincorporated for becoming later a chapter – I quite aggree with the background decision for programmatic activity, although I find two years is a bit long by comparison with our historical time scale, and although this can also be viewed as another obstacle to creating chapters.

For what I know in France, setting up an incorporated association is very easy and is quite an absolute condition for handling money on behalf of the group and hence doing some activities of a certain size; it is legally possible to "create" unincorporated associations but this is not widely recognised and it cannot really handle money. So in France an unincorporated user group could not healthily grow [alone] (this is a theoretical situation since in France, local user groups are financially supported by WMFR).

~ Seb35 [^_^] 21:58, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

@Oona: That is correct. The point is, you don't have to incorporate if you don't want to. Before we had a Brazilian group that was determined not to incorporate, and we pressured them to do so. Now we want to be extra clear that this is not necessary.

@Seb35: user groups can be incorporated if they so choose. However there are other options -- including having an umbrella organization that handles bank accounts for you, such as the example you give in France.

@Nemo: There's nothing wrong with formal entities. They're simply not mandatory for productivity.

A few years ago, the WMF required being a formal entity even where not needed or helpful, and did not grant (TM) rights or financial grants to individuals and ad-hoc groups; now that has changed. This is why funding and TM are mentioned here: they are part of the WMF's responsibility, and are now available to user groups as well.

There is no 'duty to spend money': to the contrary, much of the best work in our movement, both organized and unorganized, is done without it.

User groups can have meaningful names. Often the founding name is something longer and descriptive ("Association of Tasmanian Wikisorcerors"), but in most jurisdictions it can add other names later without reincorporating. –SJ talk  09:43, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

• Hey folks, just wanted to let you know that we are discussing this question (around incorporation) within the board as well and will try to post a longer answer soon :) -- phoebe | talk 19:28, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi all, here's an answer from the board, with some input from our legal team.

Thanks for seeking this clarification, which is completely reasonable given some of the language used. What we meant to convey by the phrase “unincorporated user group” was our intent to encourage less legalistic structures around movement organizations. That said, user groups may pursue local requirements for volunteer clubs or associations in a particular country, including incorporation when necessary for that type of club or association.

Sorry about the confusion, and I hope this helps. -- phoebe | talk 07:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

While well crafted - this doesn't actually address all concerns. What is meant by "necessary for that type of club or association"? What will define necessary? Necessary for them to exist? Necessary to request an outside grant? Necessary to accept sponsors at events? Necessary only if the laws otherwise prevent anything resembling an assembled group from meeting without paperwork? I recognize the legal problems with being specific - but when trying to offer clarity - I think specificity would be more helpful. Also, there are nonprofit advisors that encourage creating legal entities to shift some of the legal responsibilities associated with handling charitable money for a group from one individual to a group of people (generally a board) - does the board disagree or not share those concerns? Can the board share what evidence or logic motivates the desire for there to be less legal structure? Organizational structure with staff, bricks and mortar I get - but I have not yet understood the logic behind wanting the groups to wait as long as possible to become legal entities. So far the only arguments I have heard appear reasonable, but ultimately do not seem to show a clear understanding of the reasons affiliates develop at varying paces or sometimes fail. Keeping groups in this legal limbo for two years is not a solution to the problems being presented. --Varnent (talk)^(COI) 08:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

@Varnent: If I understand correctly phoebe’s last response, the Board wants to highlight the fact that the future-chapter user-groups can choose the better legal form they want – unincorporated or incorporated. ~ Seb35 [^_^] 15:37, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this is basically right if I'm reading the Board's sense correctly. It is a bit awkward because a better word probably could have been used other than the word “unincorporated,” as this discussion has demonstrated. To be sure, the Board will not be able to anticipate all the needs of the user group, and will leave to local applicant user groups and AffCom to determine what makes the best sense when taking into account all relevant factors - including their needs, objectives, goals, and mission. I believe the Board intends to ask that applicant user groups employ good sense and reason and avoid overly legal formalities when they are not necessary; that said, when such formalities are necessary because of local requirements, user groups may incorporate under appropriate laws, such as legal structures suited for voluntary clubs and associations. Geoffbrigham (talk) 21:56, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying phoebe! That makes sense. I had imagined the main concern was to leave for user groups' discretion to incorporate or not, and in which format, but had got confused with the wording, as Geoff pointed out. Now I feel comfortable to say I read the main issue here as being to let groups grow "organically" from informal groups to legally structured groups. --Oona Castro (talk) 13:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for not spotting this thread before posting to wikimedia-l. I said there: "The board meeting minutes specifically say "unincorporated Wikimedia user group”, though, which makes it sound like you don’t want groups to, well, incorporate. Which means people involved in those user groups take on personal liability for their activities rather than having the protection of a formal organisation, which is really bad for the volunteers should anything go badly..." From the above, I understand that the intention here is that user groups can incorporate, but I'd still like to ask about what happens with personal liability for those that don't? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: seems no one has replied to this yet... I think legal would be best placed to reply to this, when they get some time, but it seems to me like this is a hard/impossible question to answer because there are so many contingencies -- what the bad situation is, where the group is located and local laws, etc etc. The same is true honestly if a group is incorporated and gets sued for something; outcomes can vary depending both on local legal protections and the events. (It's hard to speculate as a non-lawyer, but even the little I know is enough to tell me it's a big question.) Fortunately I don't imagine usergroup activities being terribly controversial or lawsuit-attracting in the vast majority of cases. -- phoebe | talk 20:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Reword the first sentence

Per the above section, the word 'unincorporated' in the first sentence is confusing. And the motivation of the decision is unclear.

I propose changing the following text:

"must first be recognized as an unincorporated Wikimedia user group for at least two years."

to the following:

"must first be a Wikimedia user group for two years, to demonstrate their experience and activity."

I believe this captures the spirit of the discussion that led to the decision. The linked page describes that user groups are meant to be lightweight and may or may not be incorporated. –SJ talk  21:55, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

If that is okay with the board - I think that is a good revision. Thank you SJ! --Varnent (talk)^(COI) 00:29, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I support this. Raystorm (talk) 11:36, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Programmatic work as an informal group

Should a group be required to be recognized as a Wikimedia user group for more than two years before considering becoming a chapter? Some groups of people have not actively sought recognition, while having done programmatic work (such as outreach, community empowerment, etc). Such groups might have asked WMF for trademark permission occasionally, but not frequently enough to seek recognition for continued permission. Or more simply, the Wikimedia user group program might have not existed when they could consider if it did. Could their previous work be taken into account when considering eligibility for a chapter, provided that the group reasonably reports (or has reported) the work it did prior to recognition? I should point out, though, that how to interpret the duration might be tricky; 3 years with a 2.5-year pause in between would not equal full 3-year activity, for example. (Disclaimer: I'm involved in an informal user group, 東京ウィキメディアン会.) --whym (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello Whym, activity and transparency are the most relevant aspects. When reviewing potential chapters, excellent past work and reports are always welcome, regardless of how the group was recognized at the time. (Similarly, being an inactive user group is no better than being an inactive informal group.)

This decision is specific about inviting potential chapters to be a user group for 2 years. If you have reasons for an exception you can ask -- you yourself use the idea of an 'informal user group', which is close to how user groups were imagined in the first place. But if your group has considered becoming a chapter in the future I would recommend becoming a user group now. –SJ talk  06:21, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

@Sj: Thank you, I now understand this as putting more emphasis on actual work and demonstration of it, rather than formality. Most members of our group and other groups in Japan have had interest for a chapter (which is, though, not likely to happen in a foreseeable future due to lack of consistent volunteer time). For now, it sounds like we can use this occasion to recollect and publish what we did and learned in our group, and to become a WUG. :) --whym (talk) 10:13, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

AffCom response

Affiliations Committee/February 2014 Statement

Thank you Bence and AffCom, I appreciate this thoughtful reply. -- phoebe | talk 19:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)